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   The only “comments” I let myself read are the ones on VegNews’s FB posts just to see how ridiculous they are. Like, who knew someone could get THAT mad about the Girlscounts selling vegan s’mores?
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   Happy 1 year! Woohoo! For the pulling of the interview, personally I’d be supportive of it.
   For the answer to your non question, cilantro is vile weed Andy , I think I have to be the negative person here even though I hate to be. My guess is for many of these people, what they gain from saying stuff like that is more support of veganism from their fellow consciously-racist people. I’m thinking they are using that rhetoric in the mist of all the “too sensitive, PC, SJW-y” vegans because they secretly want more of themselves. And my other guess is they got that idea from the amount of dude bros in the community thanks to hyper-masculine misogynistic vegan advocacy.
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   Regarding removing the episode:
   Andy and Paul do a wonderful job exploring the more subtle issues in the vegan movement and it is obvious to the listener that they are self-reflective and very open to understanding social justice issues from varying perspectives. Keeping the episode would not diminish my perception of Andy and Paul. Keeping the episode does amplify the voice of someone who has proven to be closed-minded regarding the BLM.

   I listened to the episode again, and I felt the discussion of the Liberation Pledge was very interesting and included a well developed and important message that the vegan movement should be about the animals and not about the vegans. Maybe the episode could be cut off after that discussion?
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   I can’t tell you how much I love you guys and your podcast.. And I almost fell over when I heard your “droopy dogs”, as I have been being Droops for years(:.. My thought on this episode, I think that we give room for people to evolve their opinions (I.e. BLM V ALM) and we do not disregard their contributions becaus we do not agree with all of their opinions.. My soul rejoiced to hear Fish Have Feelings on your podcast, as I did not think that anyone spoke to this, but she does.. Remembering that our adoption of veganism, for most, was a journey, brings us back to the thought that we are all evolving, and FHF may also, or may not see things exactly as we do, but most likely is not racist, insensitive, not as exposed to what we have been exposed to, perhaps, but, maybe, hopefully, evolving.. As fish may be the last “stand” , for many pesces- veges, I think that podcast was important, and I hope, that in an attempt to show disapproval of her stance on another issue, you will not erase her good work in the past.. Thank you both for your work, you make me so happy, and YOUR work is so important..
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   I listened to your podcast about the CARE Vegan Festival and Mary Finelli’s participation in it. I will say up front that I have been friends with Mary for more than 25 years, and have discussed this incident with her at length. Based on your podcast, you seem to have casually accepted the word of the people who attacked Mary without taking into consideration the many people who supported her then and who continue to support her now. Perhaps worse, you did not speak with Mary before rendering your judgment of her in your podcast.

   Your assertion that Mary would not give up the phrase “All Lives Matter” is misleading. In the CARE Facebook page comments, Mary never insisted that “All Lives Matter” should replace the slogan, “Black Lives Matter.” Her point was that it is not disparaging to BLM to say, with regard to the lives of animals, that “All lives matter.” Those three words should not be verboten because of the existence of another movement and organization that calls itself “Black Lives Matter.”

   A group of people chose to rush to judgment because Mary said that animal rights activists should be able to say that “All lives matter” as a means of including the lives of animals in our circle of consideration, without our motives being questioned. For this, she was immediately branded a racist by people I can only describe as bullies and intolerant zealots. Worse, the same people who attacked Mary used this contrived controversy as an excuse to undermine an animal rights event, even though they claim to be animal rights activists.

   In the end, you appear to have listened to only one side, a side that in my opinion engaged in a witch-hunt that was as vicious as any witch-hunt you might see by rightwing fanatics. I found it shocking, especially coming from people who are so vocal about their commitment to social justice. As I said, I have known Mary for many years, and we had long discussions about this incident. Mary is distraught by this assault on her character by people who have never met her and did not know her, but who eagerly fed on each other’s hateful comments against her. Mary is one of the most decent people I know. She is deeply committed to animal rights, and she is fundamentally opposed to racism and bigotry. I therefore ask that, having said such critical things about Mary on your podcast, you speak with her now and hear her side of the story. Your podcast was an attack on someone’s reputation, so this would be the fair and right thing to do.
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     Hey Michael, thank you for addressing your concerns with us. Our assessment of the situation was based significantly more on the actions and words (as documented in Facebook posts) of CARE and Mary and much less than on those of their detractors. Most of the points you raise were addressed within the podcast itself and perhaps might warrant a second listen. But we would like to address a few of your points:

     Mary was not immediately branded a racist. As documented in screen shots, multiple activists approached her in a constructive and non-attacking manner to explain why her insistence on using All Lives Matter was problematic, both as being antagonistic towards people of color as well as being counter-productive to the vegan movement. This happened well before the incident with CARE. She was given many opportunities to learn from folks who have lived experience with this issue yet chose to double down on her usage of the term. We didn’t feel the need to contact Mary because she and CARE had repeatedly shown how they would respond to the topic at hand and we feel that if they had anything more constructive to add that would change the perception of this incident they should have made it a part of the public discourse. If anything, the words we paid the most attention to were those of CARE and Mary, especially since many of the opposing comments were deleted.

     I am curious in how you think our assertion that she was unwilling to give up All Lives Matter was misleading. She has made the case, as you have in your post, many times that it should not be off limits and that we should continue to use it as a movement.

     We both have a deep amount of respect and admiration for the work that Mary has committed herself to. But having respect for someone does not mean you cannot be critical of their words or actions. Indeed we feel the vegan movement is strongest when we are able to do so.

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